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Controversy over John 1:1 and John 20:28 (Deity of Jesus)?


Wouldn’t the writings of John’s students, Polycarp and Ignatius, be good sources to understand whether John was really intending to say that Jesus is more than &quot:a god?&quot:

I believe that God’s Word, in itself, is enough.

However, the meaning of certain verses, such as the ones you have addressed, have been called into question. Since the controversy exists, it would make sense to factor in what those in close contact to the writer believed the message to be. To my knowledge, we only have the writings of two of John’s students, Polycarp and Ignatius. Both students affirmed that Jesus is God. That’s two for two!

Now, I’m not saying that their words should be taken as absolute authority. But it seems highly unlikely that both of these men deviated from John’s teachings on the nature of God, especially if we have no other student writings in disagreement!

If we are going to easily dismiss their writings as &quot:uninspired,&quot: then should we not also dismiss the scholarly writings and opinions of every one who followed after?

For example, regarding John 1:1, there is a case made that since the coptic translators understood the lack of the definate article proceeding theos, that an indefinate article is required.

Now, why would these translators of the THIRD CENTURY have more authority than the students TAUGHT DIRECTLY BY JOHN?

I’m not claiming I have all the answers to a debate that seems never-ending. I’m sure there are other factors that should be weighed in But I do think that these writings should carry a lot of weight in the dispute.

Note: Regarding &quot:Knight2King’s&quot: remarks, have just read the source of his quote, and found no anti-semitism. Anyone familiar with Apostle Paul’s writings would recognize his statements are regarding the attempt to earn one’s salvation, under the law.

&quot:For if even unto this day we live after the manner of Judaism, we avow that we have not received grace&quot: (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, 8:2)

Feel free to read the quotes in context for yourself:
http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/n…

Then compare with Apostle Paul’s writings:

&quot:For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.&quot: (Romans 6:14 KJV)

&quot:And if by grace, then it is no longer by works: if it were, grace would no longer be grace.&quot: (Romans 11:6)

&quot:For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.&quot: (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV)

Wouldn’t the writings of John’s students, Polycarp and Ignatius, be good sources to understand whether John was really intending to say that Jesus is more than &quot:a god?&quot:

No.

We, as Bible believing Christians, need to rightly divide the Word Of God–the Bible.

We do not need a false religious system to tell us what to believe. God gives us His truth and preserved it in the KIng James Bible.

Everything else is just presumption and conjecture and can and does bring a spirit of error.

I would never, ever base my faith in the LORD JESUS on anything other than the pure word of God–not man’s teachings, ever.

Thanks for sharing those illuminating quotations. Because you give the exact source, we can check them out. Not so with some anti-Trinitarians who have partially quoted some of the early Church Fathers to make it look as if they denied the deity of Christ (in the Trinitarian sense). I refer to a booklet called &quot:Should You Believe In The Trinity?&quot: page 7, published by the Watch Tower Society (Jehovah’s Witnesses). It was impossible to check out their quotes because they gave no references for the quotes from 6 pre-Nicene Fathers! I wonder why not? The only reference they gave for a 19th century Catholic scholar was insufficient to track the book down, yet they admitted to having a copy of that book in their own library! Only people with something to hide would be so coy with source referencing.

When I investigated, I discovered those 6 quotes by the Wt.Soc were taken out of context, with vital bits missing – and that such Church Fathers believed in worshipping Christ as God! Poor Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are so duped. They cannot even check out their leaders’ statements. JWs just accept everything they say, convinced their leaders would never tell them anything other than the entire truth. Well, when the day dawns that their leaders provide exact source referencing for all their quotes, then we can rejoice with JWs because then – and only then – will JWs be encouraged to find out the truth.

If Polycarp and Ignatius – men anointed with the Holy Spirit – didn’t understand what John meant, then the Watch Tower Society certainly doesn’t!

If you read John 1:2 He (Jesus) was with God in the beginning. I see no controversial with that scripture and in John 20:28 Thomas said my Lord (Jesus) and Thomas also gives reference to God. Now look at John 3:14 and 15 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Verse 16 &quot:For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Verse 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Again I see no controversy in the two scriptures you gave us.

Controversy? What controversy? The Greek word for ‘Word’ as used in John 1:1 when applied by Greeks to the universe meant the rational principle that governs all things. Jews, on the other hand, used it to refer to God. To say that the Word was with God means the Word was distinct from the Father. To say that the Word was God is to say that Jesus was God in the fullest sense. So John 1:1 affirms the deity of Jesus.

John 20:28 does likewise. The literal translation of what Thomas said to the resurrected Jesus was &quot:The Lord of me and the God of me&quot:.

Open and shut case. Not sure what Polycarp and Ignatius have to add to the matter. Perhaps you could share with us on that one?

Edit: Great quotes and references! Thanks for sharing.

A quote from the letter of Ignatius to the church in Smyrna (translated, obviously):

&quot:And when he came to those who were with Peter, he said unto them, ‘Take handle of me, and see that I am not an incorporeal demon. And straightway they felf and believed convinced hoth by his flesh and spirit. For this cause they despised death, and were found to be above it. But after his resurrection he did eat and drink with them, as he was flesh: ALTHOUGH AS TO HIS SPIRIT HE WAS UNITED TO THE FATHER.&quot:

Ignatius was born sometime between 35 and 50, and martyred sometime between 98 and 117. That makes him early by any standards, and, what is more, it is a direct testimony to the historicity of Jesus to be found outside the Bible.

I love Romans 5:8 too, and I think God’s word is sufficient to answer this question.: 2nd Tim 3:15-17 &amp: 2nd Cor 10:16, &quot:…not to boast in another man’s line of things made ready to our hand&quot:.

added:

In our heart &amp: mind, we must &quot:Let God be true, and every man a liar&quot:, because God is true, and man is fallible. The INSPIRED word of God is good enough for me. God bless.

added:

The INSPIRED word says, &quot:For in him dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily&quot:, Colossians 2:9. That leaves no other part of the Godhead to exist. Sums up what is said in John 1:1.

Unfortunately, Ignatius became a rabid anti-Semite so his understanding of what he gleaned from John are somewhat in question.

Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) – Epistle to the Magnesians

&quot:For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity.&quot:

Get that….’wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews’, and all this time I thought Jesus WAS a Jew? Silly me…..

Interesting. But as with some of mans writings, it confuses me. I would rather just believe what the Spirit of Truth, the anointing I’m anointed with lead me in Gods Truth. But I see these writings don’t seem to contradict with what the Lord has taught me so far according to the Bible. Jesus Christ is Lord.
A god could be Holy Angels, fallen angels, Godly human judges, or selfrighteous humans making themselves gods/judges. Or it could be images man makes to bow to. There is One LORD God above all gods. And He is God the Father, Word/Son &amp: Holy Spirit. Jesus is God the Word in the beginning. Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God in His earth Ministry. And the LORD Jesus Christ the Word/Son of God and who Is our Lord &amp: our God after His resurrection from the dead.

Jesus was the ‘Word of God’ in the beginning, who was with God &amp: who is God. The Word of God put on flesh &amp: dwelt among us. Jesus didn’t do His Ministry as God, but as the Messiah, the Only Begotten Son of God, the Lamb of God without blemish (sin), the Resurrection &amp: the Eternal Life.
As a man, who was born of the ‘Seed of the Woman’ &amp: conceived by the Holy Spirit (a man without sin nature &amp: Emanual (God with us)). He is Named Yeshua (Savior) because He will save His people.

Jesus in the Beginning is the Word of God &amp: Is God with God. Jesus left His position as God to be one of us &amp: overcome the curse of sin &amp: death for us. He raised from the dead for us &amp: is our Lord &amp: our God, who even the Angels worship. And He is highly exalted with the Name above all names. That at the Name of Jesus, every knee shall bow &amp: tongue confess &quot:Yeshua Messiah Yahweh!&quot:.

God the Father, Word &amp: Holy Spirit is One Creator LORD God.

What is portrayed in the bible is the holy trinity the father( God) the son(Jesus) and the holy spirit ( god influence over people) thees are all one in the same and that is God it is like you have a pie and you cut it into three parts they are pieces to the same pie. They are all God so there for they are all God.

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